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In a more serious question which I ask as someone whose skills as a musician extend to playing about 12 chords — to what extent does is above comment about paying for recording albums tempered by the fact that the technology and software required to record is as affordable as ever. How vital is and I ask this in total niavety the recording studio in the 21st c? So how do the pro downloaders propose musicians make a living? Maybe they could give their wages away to a fund for musicians.

People keep saying where is the new punk in these tough recession times…but what is already happening is that making music is a posh kids hobby. They are the only ones who can afford to rehearse and tour and not care about making any money from selling their music. If musicians are to be happy giving their music away for free are people going to stop complaining about them using their music in adverts etc? Or are people going to be happy paying more to get into gigs? Remember there is no pension fund in rock n roll.

The people who seem to be confused about being anti downloading and mixing it up with being pro Google are a bit slow. Google and apple and the big corporates are perfectly happy to let you download other peoples music for free- it means you are using their services and products more meaning they make millions more and the musicians make nothing.

Feed their kids? Pay the rent? Or are the underserving of such luxury items as this. Music has plenty of value; music is being made, uploaded, shared, played, sung along to, danced to, loved and hated and discussed as much as ever. Possibly more than ever; certainly the potential for an unsigned math rock band from Plymouth to be heard by teenagers in Minsk or Kyoto or Sao Paulo is something almost entirely new.

And wonderful, no? Blogs reach the places fanzines never could and MP3s freely shared by bands and labels find audiences and fans in corners of the internet that would have been unthinkable even five years ago. What is less easy to pinpoint is the monetary value of infinitely copiable digital files.

Is that a true representation of what the record company might have lost in sales? When bands set up a pay-what-you-like system, some people pay nothing; some people pay five quid; most pay something there are books written about the honesty box effect: it works. Certainly, the idea of allowing the consumer to decide how much a file not a physical product is worth to them appeals to me, given that no-one can decide what a copied digital file is worth objectively.

This is a transitional time: maybe in ten years time it will all be clear and obvious how musicians can make money from their labour. Really, if half — hell, MOST — of the artists who exist today disappeared tomorrow, would anyone even notice? Music as entertainment existed just fine before the music industry was invented. Face it: music is not important, but important music will happen regardless of computers, money, or even Alec Empire.

Presumably this is why cornershop are taking pledges towards their new album? How good could a bedroom studio be? How much could a musical collective pool resources to create a glorified bedroom studio they could all use? Hotel2Tango recording studio — was this a genuine product of some kind of anarcho post rock thing, or are GYBE! Is it just an illusion? The impact on montreal of places like that seems incredible. Is their similar here? Jonathan : I can only speak for myself, but I think that you are wrong.

Music is important. These are acts both local to Manchester where I live and international, who usually have to self fund transport and book time off their day jobs for tours etc. To me they make fantastic art that is certainly no less worthy of a sale than U2 or whatever. I pay in at the door to small shows and buy merchandise often home made CD-Rs to give a little back and show that I support them.

So yes, I agree that important music will happen regardless, however quality is often not a massive factor in music sales. Music Industry Rules said: RT southernrec: Excellent debate on louderthanwar about music piracy incl. That was the same with Punk. I personally love diversity in the music world. So if a million people love hearing Frank Sinatra singing to an orchestra, it should be possible to make that happen without getting McDonalds or Springles on board for sponsoring.

And ideally even share a percentage with the rest of his team. Then takes a part of that and invests into the next project. It is more complex than that, but you get the idea. I find that the quality of pop music has clearly declined and I am not even a fan of pop music, so I look at it from a far distance.

When musicians had to put more time aside to get the take right, now you get autotune to do it. I am not against new technology at all, but when it starts to lower the quality of music because the budget is not there anymore, then it does damage and is used in the wrong way.

Do we want music only to be recorded in bedrooms, done on on laptops provided by corporations? Yes, but I also want to hear Stravinsky to be played by a real orchestra. People have to start looking at the bigger picture. I have witnessed recording sessions in which even the assistant engineer had such an excitement about the music that he vibed up the band to play better.

Many people these days are racist because of the image MTV spreads about hip hop. Make no mistake about that. This link triggered a similar discussion on my facebook page. Someone pointed out the history of music, and that we should be grateful for what we have even if it gets worse. I argued that we could also accept girls not going to school or all that madness that was ok for centuries.

We are talking about the future here. And I have joined the discussion many times because I see new and mostly young artists struggling so bad that they stop making music. The current system is NOT working for future generations. I can afford to give away my music for free to them most of the times.

I am exaggerating a bit, but you know what I mean. Think Beatles…if they had stopped after their first few singles. I personally would prefer to use Miles Davis as an example…but not sure if people listen to him on this page. And will only work less well in the future.

The problem actually lies with making sure that people butchers, bakers and electropop makers are ALL adequately and fairly recompensed for their labour: same old problem that has been kicked around for centuries. Been reading this great debate with some surprise and now its time to pitch in! The only young people who can afford to make music now are the rich kids…a world of Coldplays, great. Thanks for that answer Alec — I see the obvious point about the ambition and scope of the music being dictated by the means at the musicians disposal.

Good for them. It would be easier to comply. How much is it worth if the download is followed up with the purchase of a T-shirt or a gig ticket or back catalogue? After rereading all the comments twice, I feel! Alec Empire has summed up the solution to the problem and this solution is to the key to many problems, not just the illegal downloading one in his first comment.

This solution, in my optimistic!!! PS: I am a musician of 29 who has been prof. Seriously considering this! The hatred and ignorance of the audience upset me big time, for you hear the intention in their words.. And Lucy…. And frankly…. Surely, i will just DO it, i have enough guts, as my personal history shows… but i am realistic as well. And not only in the music department…. I want to make that absolutely clear to everyone…. I never said that file sharing is only responsible for causing the problem, BUT it is part of the problem.

AND it could also be part of the solution, but we have to identify the problem first. And we have to look at it from the musicians viewpoint and not only from the record companies or files sharers perspective. The banks are doing it with the majority of the population, we could do it bottom up, too. Any time…. In relation to a part your previous post, I think that, whilst Rick Rubin produced Cash in a beautifully lavish yet minimalist style, that presence would have sounded just as brilliant if admittedly not as commercial recorded on a dictophone tape.

How do you record your stuff these days, by the way? I think it is not that relevant how I record my music. If the producers want a famous singer on the lead track, we have to convince her or come up with the right amount, so she can afford to do it. And that is what I try to explain… people have that arrogance to think they can judge and decide over the artistic process. If it was that easy? Do you think those guys are that stupid? If Rick Rubin decided with Johnny Cash this would create the best recording possible, people should accept that and enjoy the music.

Believe it or not, it is actually not only the gear that creates the value, it is the brainpower of those who make the music. It can be a subconscious thing. Neither does taking heroin. It is about connecting the dots, coming up with interesting combinations of people, equipment and musical ideas. Put an expensive car and bikini girls in the video, that will make people believe they are buying something which is worth it.

Certain types of microphones make certain voices sound amazing, they capture the voice in the best way. We would miss out on those artists! Watch Black Swan — that explains it a bit. And that is not even worth 12 Dollars for you? I think I will never understand that mindset of those who argue this way. To me music was always so important, it was priceless. I hope not. The gatekeepers have changed. Alec, Thanks very much for the link to that absorbing article and your in depth response.

Apologies for going a bit off topic. Music software has also come along considerably since when American 4 came out, so it would be easier to attempt that now too. If I was going for that sound though, granted, it would be much easier and better to do it in a great studio with engineer who really knew the equipment well. Perhaps my original comments were dumb and irrelevant to the debate anyway.

I guess I grew up making music cheaply on old computers, rubbish guitars and four tracks and no kind of professional microphone, so developed work arounds to the limitations and I have an interest in that kind of thing. I like artists that use cheap technology to make great music and work small scale too. As I was saying earlier I like to go to these shows and buy stuff to support artists working like this as long as the music is great, obviously! I got my own stuff played on John Peel and Radio 1 shows quite a lot and even sold a couple of records using really quite a terrible setup.

I understand the pressure of it…we still record, put on live shows and DJ nights and run a net label for pretty much no money on top of having full time day jobs. You meet a lot of cool people and network and have fun. Making money from art generally is just the problem right now, though I personally think the current economic situation is more to blame than google or filesharing.

Great debate here anyway, fantastic site. They should also be charged an arbitrary amount to compensate the listeners for money they may or may not have forked out, including all future purchase that may or may not happen of the crap songs. Absolutely true. In the past i used to do those little videos, where i explained a bit how a record is done.

All of my work i have recorded myself, simply by trying to reinvent the wheel… I let the record be mastered : big bucks! But it's like a painting: you need a shiny layer on top of it, to give it depth. I visualize music, how to explain……? My friends have become fascinated with the process. They had no idea how much blood, sweat and tears are involved.

By the way: that Pirate Conference idea is great! As i said: sign me up. I can so envision it! It has always been my dreeeeeeaaaaaam, hahaha!!! Anyway, good news today! And it takes guts to decide whether you will unleash that one good song onto the world, for it is so incredibly polluted anyway….

The truth is, is that it is the question that stares at me each morning as I pour the water on the coffee grounds. I have a confession, or revelation, or coming out if you will. My name is Loz Kaye. And I am a composer. Most of you will recognise the real everyday questions about making a living as a musician.

This is the real life of ordinary musicians, music teachers, song writers and composers. The people who are the back bone of our bands, venues and orchestras in the UK. And certainly not a question about whether someone has hypothetically not paid for something that was not on sale. The stark truth is that new initiatives and laws which are branded as being about helping musicians, are in fact about a desperate attempt to shore up profits of the music industry.

Through legislation like the Digital Economy Act recording industry bosses want to pursue individual file sharers. Perhaps most disappointing of all is that the Musicians Union seems impotent in the face of these everyday concrete concerns of musicians, and spends time and money lobbying for industry instead. Many of you may be concerned about where the next payment is coming from, but what is on the table is not going to help.

From the sound of it, a life threatening one. But that is far from the case. Even industry reports acknowledge that digital download income has increased. The real threat to our incomes are arts funding cuts hitting projects and venues, education cuts blighting the future of young musicians. As composers and musicians we have never had so many opportunities. We can open up a real dialogue with our fans through social media, and involve them in our music making in a much more profound way than simply hitting them with a bill.

We are constantly hearing about file sharing as a kind of theft. But this is not accurate as nothing has been taken, and is just plain wrong legally. Instinctively to us it feels no different to teaching someone a song, that magic moment when you transmit a piece of art on to another human being. The only way to steal from me is to take my instruments- or take my audience. Or at least the Lady Gagas of this world who have lawyers and PR folk to fight for them.

The Digital Economy Act would target individuals for their downloading habits. First expect narky, sorry, explanatory letters. Then your bandwidth could be restricted, and as things stand you could even be chucked off the Internet for downloading three short songs. So in other words, the plan is to exclude the best customers from the shop- stealing our audience. Copyright crackdowns and Internet exclusions are not the answer to our everyday problems as musicians.

But even if they were, do we really want to hand the power of Internet surveillance and regulation to the government and courts? All that has happened in the Middle East recently should show we should be wary of such a move. To be honest I prefer my freedom to my PRS paycheck. I have no doubt music will survive. It is stronger than any one of us. I suspect I will continue to find a way to make a living. The Internet far from causing suffering in creativity that KilburnMat refers to has opened up a myriad of new possibilities, discoveries and influences.

What does worry me is the kind of society we open up by calling for laws that ask for surveillance just to check what tunes you might be listening too, or what words you want to look at. It is this that we should be fighting against as musicians, it is the opposite of creativity. That is truly music becoming a pointless exercise. Evolution is taking place, debate and complaints are essential, without discussion there is nothing.

My point is that by getting together a change can be effected, a mass can grow, momentum can build. So how do we get all these people together? There were so many anti x factor campaigns in December that Cowell would have been guffawing into his gold lined tea cup. Divided they fell. Everybody needs to put food on the table and there will always be Poeple out there who will take advantage but with a cooperative movement the beneficiaries are the members, these could be the musicians and the fans.

Band camp is a great place and if the greedy middle man can be eradicated and the business strategy and profit division made transparent then maybe we can rebuild trust from the consumer that will make it worth paying for the effort and cost that goes into making and distributing music. Working towards solutions is progress, debate is valuable but point scoring is futile. This is a great debate! Imagine if the majors had been giving away all your music for free!

The notion that this is somehow censorship! The Internet giants are the mill owners of these times and the musicians are the workers lucky to get paid a pittance for their efforts and you are quite happy to support the daylight robbery of their wares.

As far as I am concerned, the Pirate Party ARE the progressives here; anyone who is lining up behind state forces to protect profits which is what is happening; do you really think Sony etc. The PP is not actually giving away music or ripping anyone off: they are enabling music fans to swap files: they are not complicit in the destruction of anything.

Statements like this one here are why the Pirate Party reminds of bankers declaring the end of the recession last year…. Thanks, but no thanks. Where he disagrees with you is over much file-sharing has contributed towards the situation and whether there is cause to be optimistic about creative solutions. And, really, what on earth makes you think that the PP want to decide whose art gets financed?

As far as I can tell, they are all about freedom of speech, net neutrality and freedom of information. Worthy goals, but nothing to do with wielding power to make aesthetic choices. Once you lay that into the hands of government, it will distort the market. Look at France. I am only interested in musicians and small labels getting paid for their hard work and talent. Putting aside the fact that the PP obviously care enough to think very deeply about that very question and devote considerable amounts of time and energy to campaigning about it, I wonder what you think IS the reality of creativity under capitalism?

I think it stinks that what matters most about art under this system is what price you can get for it. What utter white washed, libellous, PR friendly nonsense! Scary thought eh lucy? Sat in your cushy executive suite, mercilessly thinking up ways to screw whatever may remain of the record labels.

The Pirate Party needs stamping out, long live the people. The selfishness of people in tis debate is outstanding. Music is now a rich kids game. When everyone works for free and no one gets paid then their system is fair. Despite your pessimism about human behaviour, the honesty box effect DOES work, there are plenty of studies that say so.

And there are plenty of musicians who are make a decent living despite giving their music away for free. Few people I know have a couple of grand to make an album either: they make it how they can, as they always have. Have you read Steve Albini on the record industry?

Getting out there and getting heard is indisputably hugely facilitated by the internet, blogs, online zines, MySpace, Facebook, LastFm, Spotify…. But now you are trying to question musicians ideals again. That is that old trick those guys always come up with. How about free food, electricity, petrol, water, clothes for everyone? Accept that we all have a problem which is growing and growing.

A decade ago I said in an interview with W magazine in the States that in the new century pop music will become so fragmented, it will eventually die. Everybody was pissed off with me, even friends from indie bands. Now you can read it everywhere.

Nothing else. Right now I think musicians should be in control of that tool. Do I find that Major labels should sue filesharers? So I am looking at this 14 year old and got sad somehow…I was actually curious what these little big mouths would come up with. And they are smart. The education sucks in that part of Berlin but they have figured it out they are being lied to by politicians and went into another direction. Lucy, you bring up Albini in this discussion? Yes, he was right at the time. Did you look at the date?

The Pirate Party in Germany used to use some of my statements for their politics, until I explained the other side. Sony took a song without our permission, added it onto a camcorder commercial and aired a bunch of times on TV. Fans sent us VHS copies of that. I was furious! Now, try battle Sony in Asia in court. That was a complete nightmare. And Asian copyright laws is what you guys want right?

They want to win over pissed off kids who are flirting with leftwing ideologies. They even play all kinds of rock music, even reggae, or hip hop. So one day I get sent this link. Neo-Nazis used one of my songs in a clip on YouTube. I got my publisher onto this, 24 hours later, they were shit scared and it got removed and we received a letter saying how sorry they were.

Very entertaining read by the way. Now do a google search and check out who was financing Pirate Bay. This is just not true. Go and ask them why they do it. People are making and recording music at an unprecedented rate: the editors at Drowned In Sound wrote recently about the amount of music that they get through their inboxes daily, far more than an equivalent-sized paper magazine would have got ten years ago. Money has been a vitual good since i can remember, our bank acount balances are just as virtual as anything that can be found around the net and still these values seems to be so strangely save and protected.

I think it still has some pretty relevant things to say about the way record companies work and where the money goes. I am much more interested in the way you look at things than people who are simply battling hopelessly to hold onto the past. Patrick is right about the majority of musicians these days. That is also what I witnessed and heard everywhere I went and talked to support bands or or bands in small clubs, at parties. Lucy, remember that a lot of musicians want to keep some dignity in this situation.

When you look behind the scenes or work there you see the reality. And I love it! Me playing a show in Taiwan last year and kids going totally nuts and knowing all the lyrics AND politics. That happened because of the internet, in the 90ties it was hard to get records out there. I am writing here because I hope I can add a little bit to finding a solution. Usually in public you get the idiot version of the filesharer long hair, glasses, etc. Where is that guy now by the way…Metallica is the biggest band in the world.

Some of the programmers, hackers, crackers etc. It would be awesome if they could help build an alternative that works for independent musicians too. While the Pirate Party guys, oh dear, they are on the wrong path. We moving towards very exciting times and I think musicians should be on board.

The Internet is great for communication and getting music out there but that should be the choice of the musician and not a bunch of post Swedish kids stealing other peoples music. I have read Albinis notes on major labels and have often wondered if being on Blast First record label with his band which was part of Mute if he is qualified to talk about being on an independent label.

I met Mark Smith once and he was the most up his are musician I have ever met! There are two sides to this story. It started with theft, but Metallica have certainly profitted from that initial illegality in my current mega-fan status. In this day of mass communication, digital recording and file transfer, it is SO easy to make music, to distribute music and to find music.

Fm, but I still like to have a copy stored away somewhere…. I firmly believe that modern technology has freed musicians from the control of big studios, major labels and all that evil stuff, but it also threatens the small scale FAIR livelihood they could make from that freedom. A consensus on some degree of intellectual porperty for digital music MUST be agreed and enforced.

If we have no respect for the products of our artists, for those artists ability to continue producing by denying them fair financial recompense for their art, then our society will become an even grayer, more bloodless place in the name of such wholesale, thoughtless theft. Artists losing money is still not a reason to call for censorship. CJR, you have some balls to say that when I have so clearly explained where I stand on the issue.

Did you even read what I wrote up there? To mention me in one reply with a call for censorship is plain crazy. Please read what I wrote first then judge. I think that file sharing is good for artists in the respect that bands are free from the clutches of labels when it comes to releasing and distribution. File sharing has become an incredible way for upcoming artists to share their art with the world, without having to pander to industry suits or pay thousands of dollars to DiscMakers and distributors.

With the ease of recording and the abundance of young talent trying to spread their wings, now is the time for budding musicians to get creative and collaborate! The labels were middlemen to rally the troops for those collaborations, but with the internet musicians have no need for label interference.

It has been proven that masterpieces can be recorded in bedrooms and modern home studios. It has been proven that an artist can still become a success without having to go through a label. We are the tape traders of the 20th century.

Pandora and Last. Fm are our answer to terrestrial radio and owned by CBS ironically. There we go. First of all, I have to say that artists deserve to make money on their work. I absolutely believe in this, and I am willing to pay. Thing is, I prefer paying for a concert or a gig over paying for a record for which only a fraction reaches the people that would deserve it.

Yes there are record companies and labels that do it differently, but in my view, record companies are something of the past. There are numerous recent examples of bands that thank their success not to the promotional work of a record company, but to the internet and buzz created around it.

Sure — the recording-studios still have to make money, and artists can get a lot of help from a record company, but they are losing a lot of their major selling points. This phenomenon will only become bigger, and it scares the big giants.

It pretty much pointed out with facts and numbers that the time-frame in which artists were making money more on records than on live performances was very limited when looking at the complete history of the music-industry when they started selling records. Artists have always depended on live performances, and it still is a major part of their income.

As you stated, the time of expensive records is gone. That golden age is over. Now I have to admit, I am a lazy person. I discovered loads of artists by downloading their stuff, and I can honestly say, I saw the majority of the artists I discovered and like live, or plan to do this as soon as possible. I paid for their work in one way or another, mostly by going to performances of parties.

But there you have it: piracy for me is mostly a way to discover new music. I am also a huge admirer of open-mindedness that John Peel had when it came to music, and it was amazing how he promoted music that would otherwise never been heard off. I discovered a lot of different music styles and artists through recordings of the famous John Peel Sessions which has also featured ATR I found on file-sharing networks. And I do not care. They know they will never be able to do this, there is no future in their sub-sub-subgenre they love, and yet they continue.

Not Money. With all due respect, I have to disagree with you Lucy. The whole model has shifted to a place where music is nothing more than a promotional tool for shows. The value has been completely wiped off of recordings due to the scale of file-sharing. Unfortunately, for someone starting out this is the new normal. You say people are recording music at an unprecedented rate but how many actually sustain careers?

Like I said, recorded music is now just a tool to promote shows. But what if someone just wants to record? Comparing the Pirate Party to Wikileaks? You do realize the Pirate Bay and other such sites profit from their stolen content due to advertising revenue? As sad as the musicians losing out is are the talented studio engineers, producers etc. I worry about those people getting put out of work because a lot of these jobs are highly specialised and e.

Finally, comparing Wikileaks and the Pirate Bay is just dumb. Wikileaks are dealing in freedom of information in order to re-establish what is essentially a politcal power discourse in favour of the man on the street; the Pirate Bay steal intellectual property. When signed to a major I was given a load of dosh to spend but never made any money so I guess nothings changed in that respect. The technology is ours we have a choice.

Much love xxx. What the guy up there said about the moon. Technology leaves people behind. Usually poor people. But not this time. Now it has left behind rich people, and a bunch of egotistical pale withering flower artistes who feel they should be rich because their art is oh so important and precious. Back in the day I was at the mercy of the music industry. Overworked and underpaid, I had to pay out lots of money. I bought thousands of musical artefacts, because I loved music so, at the rate of one a week.

The technology did not then exist for me to do otherwise. The only reason people worked out how to copy music was because it was hideously expensive back then. Piracy has always had a valuable place in the music industry. The value of piracy in bringing music to a wider audience is something which has been factored out of the debate, but should be considered in part as a positive tool for creating an income stream for artists.

I always felt that people leave technology behind. Mainly because people have a choice and make a decision which technology works best for them. Actually a lot of my music was produced totally d. Why have it now? I explained that when everybody pays a fraction of the costs, even music that is expensive to produce, can exist. And I prefer that over conformist laptop produced indie rock or dance music.

You do realize that you are talking like those hedgefund managers? What I am trying to say here is if we think like that we will lose out on some of the best music. I want to point out that power here. I also want to make another point. Over the past 20 years I often had talks with musicians and composers, producers about how important the actual instrument itself is when creative ideas start taking shape.

Musicians write and perform very different over certain instruments the wood a 50ties Gibson guitar is made of sounds deeper and more intense, because of its quality and it feels better when you play on it, compared to your new mass produced cheap guitar coming from China — of course you can write and play amazing music on that too, but the well built instruments become less and less affordable to musicians these days.

This has more to do with the negative side effects of globalisation. If everyone will use that same logic piano vst plug in, you basically end up with a lot of that uninspired music you hear in bad movies. Already a real handbuild piano is an instrument that only the upper middle class can afford. That gap will get wider. I want to live in a society where everyone can have access to an instrument like that, so we can hear the real talent. How dare anyone try and charge for music.

It should be free. I bought myself some really good mics and recorded through my computer set up. It was only about ten grand to record. Surely every band with a bit of nous can do this? Oh, and Luke…. Many musicians give their music away for free, because no one will ever buy it… But ah well — this world is focused on quantity and not QUALITY… and not just in the music department.

Oh, and Luke…….. Old buggers like us is anyone reading this blog under forty? I know a lot of 20 year olds who love music which is only available on vinyl. Try to feel music again for a change. Can somebody get photographers into this debate? Or real journalists?

Film makers? Independent software programmers? Anyone who is producing content is under attack. The corporations who make their profits from that should also s h a r e. I am under 30 Alec: tried poking a film distributor for this debate, but he is smarter than i am at times: he knows that speaking is silver, and silence is golden, quoting his exact reaction. Oh hang on, Sony deal with a lot of the musicians works anyway….. The Internet is the greatest force for free speech in history.

Really, fuck the music industry. Phil, you need to get a grip. Not on the iPhone, but damn near everything else. Free has won. The music industry of old relied on taking a percentage from massive inefficiencies of production and distribution. You would need to show that without full-time musicians this flow of music would stop. I wonder why that is.

Please see my comment as an extension of ALL my comments above. I was talking about the future and the negative consequences for independent musicians that are REAL. Music has always been open source. But the craft is putting it together and playing it, yes the frequencies already exist in the universe. People mention recording costs are near to nothing now.

No software that kids use to record music that is open source. They use Ableton, Protools or Logic and a few others. That was my point about Pirate Bay, if you offer this service links to files DO NOT put ads on your site and make millions while pointing your finger at musicians and recordlabels. Fuck the music industry is like saying fuck all black people or something.

I said above that the music world is way more complex than that. We will lose diversity in the long run if the current system is kept in place. And I said that conformity is death to music. Artists will give up creating. I always wanted an Internet which is not like TV. The future of google, apple, facebook and the others are heading towards that. I got unvirtual world things to do. Yet people are just saying the same old points.

Think RPG here. We all have skills. There is some kind of credit scheme, like in poker or something, for your knowledge or skills being shared? Just an idea. Collectively as a group. Maybe a little piece of something is better than nothing right? Also not to be all sun shine hippie here, there should be hope here right?

It just seems wrong that fake plastic bimbos are role models for even females in music. I see everything having a running order, governed by charts. I think this is about a future generation. Louder Than War clearly talked about independent musicians and not major record labels. They were addressing a problem that exists for the majority of musicians today. This debate — around music, films, books and software — has been raging for a good few years now, and there have been some very in-depth, thoughtful discussions about this all over the internet, on forums and blogs and websites.

How anyone could even dare to link wikileaks and music piracy is painful. We are talking about the future of the internet and the reality we all face. If Lucy had made her points in , fine, everybody was very excited about the possibilites of the technology when it became accessible to more people. There is a very clear difference between Wikileaks exposing information that makes people see the injustices and crimes that our governments commit in our name and independent musicians keeping control over their music and deciding what can and cannot be done with it.

Lucy, what was your job again? Not sure if you spoke about what you do for a living in this debate. But, Alec, the fact is that file-sharing, open-source software, freedom of information, the digitisation of books: these ARE all connected. Music will still be there and livings will still be made. Can you only take ideas seriously from certain people? Jesus, I hope not. Twisting my words. Why do you do that? Read my comments.

I think it is very important to know what your job is, so we can understand the points you are making. Why are you holding that information back? What i wanted to add : i have a couple of photographer friends all over this tiny planet of ours, and they just have to put all kinds of huge copyright notices on their images, for it happens regularly that their work is being used for commercial purposes, without any permission.

And basically : none know what the solution is, but all are equally worried. By the way, i have no idea how many are reading my comments on here…. This whole debate first plunged me into deep despair. I have sacrificed my entire life for the sake of music, dance, arts.. But anyway. So ok, the current system is not working. Definition of system: a set of connected things or parts, forming a complex!

I keep on wondering about this one somehow…. Who are you pointing your war of words at? I feel this becoming a personal diretribe against those who are not for your view. MY JOB? Or a brick virtual wall? Back to topic: music people. Consider it a compliment. Harrass her offline? Because she has a different opinion? What makes you think I would do such a thing… I am working on another article about the issue, and I think there are many good points coming from all sides.

I find it very important that everyone is open about their identity. The exact same technology is welcomed by dictators around the world. Obama is about to sneak in laws which give the US authorities more power so they can filter and track down blogs and websites.

I think we must see the bigger picture here. Oh, for crying out loud, people! The one i posted yesterday. No wonder we are not moving forward. By the way, Alec, check my facebook page. I had a dream last night you might wanna read. If you really think that my points should be taken more or less seriously depending on whether I were a bus-conductor or a cellist, then I despair.

As people have already commented on here, the internet actually opens up potential for an audience, especially for smaller bands. The global recession, no longer being able to sign on as a musician or get funded by Art Council grants: those have changed things for musicians too. Same is true for writers and artists. I wonder what agenda you think I have that stating this is somehow controversial? I think everyone out here is taking your points very serious. Ok, you might not know my music or my view of the world.

But for me there is no difference between a cop, a banker, a musician or a bus-conductor. Early punk rock could be seen as a starting point, where people took over the stages of rock clubs. In reality TV, X factor and all those shows have understood this.

Mirror the audience you want to sell your product to. Same strategy is applied by Pirate Bay. Pop acts show themselves in their music videos driving expensive cars and having the chicks and bling, so the audience assumes they are already successful, so they can trust that product and can follow them like sheeple.

I am very aware of the fact when I work on music, everybody who works on the project matters and is important. When someone from the Pirate Party is preaching about how art should be free, it is very different to Banksy.

When Radiohead gives away their record for free, it is different to when Fugazi wanted their tickets not to be more expensive than 10 Dollars. You seem so hypnotized by the idea that the freedom of the internet will be the solution to every problem in our world. When you work for Google in one way or another,…We have entered a new phase when it comes to the internet and control technologies.

I know people who could easily get into your network and could expose all kinds of private information. Would you like that? I guess not. So I mean …what is your job? You would tell anyone in the pub, why is it different out here?

Your views are not so far away from mine on many of the things you mention; I am not accusing you of elitism. I am not a member of the Pirate Party and I have no connection to them. I have no agenda, only a point of view.

I have already said that I have made, promoted and written about music: sometimes for financial reward, mostly not. Tell me, does that make my views more or less worth considering? One example…. Why does it work? Because everybody who goes there knows why they are doing it and they pay the entrance. You will never see the big major label bands playing there, because they can only pay fair fees to the bands and not these outrageous amounts which are being paid by festivals that are sponsored by corporations which still are raising the ticket prices to my surprise.

That is the spirit I am talking about here. It is time for independent musicians and fans of that music to join forces and build a strong community which can survive and grow without the middlemen. But music fans need to understand the effects their actions have and that they have to take responsibilty for them. Alec, that is exactly the same spirit as I am talking about too: why do you think I mentioned the honesty box effect? Or highlighted the cutting-out-the-middle man positives of the internet?

Or have banged on about the connection between DIY culture and the digital age? We are working class and we object to your deliberate misreading of an earlier post saying that the poster had said that working class people were only in it for the money when they obviously they did not say that. You need to pay a driver to tour and hire a van and pay upfront for this merchandise that we are all meant o be making a living out of.

In between all this you need to eat, pay rent and look after tour family. We used to get money from our record label to cover these costs. They were hardly evil capitalists. They were fans of music. Now, because of downloading, they cannot afford to pay for our music and overheads and we have to pay for our own recordings. We also have to travel further to record because the local studios have shut down because the groups cannot afford to record in them because no-one has any money because you and the Pirate Bay lot have mugged it off us.

We accept that this is the way it is. And that makes me wonder Lucy what is your job. Bandcamp Daily your guide to the world of Bandcamp. Hollie Cook guests, dropping inspirations and tunes from her latest supremely soulful reggae LP. Get fresh music recommendations delivered to your inbox every Friday. We've updated our Terms of Use. You can review the changes here. Keygen by LukHash. HowardThen Fantastic tune, as always. Instant purchase! Martin Fung. Marmar tha Midboss. Duane Ackley.

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